Some comments below:
>>>>>Buckner's 1909 remembrances are not a very strong tie. In the interview he remembered wrongly the organization of the army. He also said, "my wife made a flag for each regiment there at Bowling Green with her own hands." Fact is Mrs. Samuel Blackburn and her daughters did considerable work in turning out these flags.>>>>>
As I am the one that discovered that Mrs. Blackburn and her daughters helped make the flags, there is indeed a strong tie-in with Mrs. Buckner. Mrs. Blackburn rented her house to Albert Sidney Johnston for his HQ while at Bowling Green. I have the inovices for this from her file in Confederate Papers Relating To Citizens & Business from the National Archives.
Thus, having Mrs. Buckner around when these flags were made is highly probable as she would certainly have known Mrs. Blackburn. Bowling Green was not a large town in 1861.
Also - his account in this 1909 article about the fighting at Donelson is pretty accurate actually. His claim after Grant got his 11,000 reinforcements (only off by a couple thousdan actually) making Grant 3 or 4 times stronger than the Confederates is wrong - it made them about double their strength however.
>>>> Three of Buckner's regiments, at Fort Donelson, the 3rd, 18th, and 32nd Tennessee, surrendered 1st Nationals. I never discount the recollections of old veterans but one must always take their recollections at only a small part of the overall picture and attempt through cross referencing to determine something close to truth.>>>>>
Then you need to do more research, for all three regiments also surrendered their Buckner/Hardee battle flags made at Bowling Green. The one for the 3rd Tennessee Infantry just sold at the auction held at the Nashville Civil War show in December. I was there. It was taken by the 14th Missouri (later the 66th Illinois) and ended up in Michigan well after the war in the collections of a relic collector. It was sold in early 2006 to another collector in Nashville (and I was there when that happened) and he then auctioned it off in December. I have detailed files for this flag including its capture details.
The 25th Indiana (same brigade as the 14th Missouri by the way) captured the Hardee flag of the 18th Tennessee Infantry at Donelson. It remained in the hands of one of the unit's men after the war and was destroyed by an angry former Union soldier while the man and his flag was going to a reunion at Shiloh in 1907. The angry man took it and burned it in a fireplace of the riverboat upon which they were travelling. I have the full details of its capture and burning in the Rockport (IN) Journal Weekly of April 19, 1907.
Lastly - the 32nd Tennessee's Buckner/Hardee flag is detailed in an article in Confederate Veteran (Nov. 1898) by one of its members, who states, "Some think the blue battle flag only was carried into the fight in the woods on the hill, but this same flag was with the regiment until it surrendered, February 16, Sunday morming." This flag has not yet been located.
In addition, while not at Donelson but part of Buckner's Division that remained at Bowling Green, the Buckner/Hardee flag of the 24th Tennessee Infantry survived well into the 1960's in the hands of the descendents of Col. Peebles. I have three post-war pictures of it from various sources. It, like the other flags, was marked with the unit designation.
I also have details of the Buckner/Hardee flags for the Mississippi regiments of his division too at Donelson.
I live 25 miles from Donelson; I lead detailed tours there including for the US Army; I am president of the Friends of the Ft. Donelson Campaign. I KNOW Ft. Donelson and I can tell you that after many years of research into CS flags taken there, that most are still unaccounted for today as they were sent home to the families of officers and, in one case, to the family of a former US Congressman then serving in an Indiana regiment there. This flag was taken from one of the Mississippi regiments. Ohio Historical Society has the remains of the Plentitude Invincibles flag (a company of the 23rd Mississippi) that was also taken at Donelson. This regiment lost at least 5 company flags there (detailed in Madaus' book). The 49th and 50th Tennessee Infantry regiments, both from this area of Tennessee (Clarksville), got company and regimental flags presented to them while at Donelson, and none of them have been located today.
Howard Madaus, in his seminal study of CS flags from 1976, did not have most of the information that has turned up since the book was published. He now does and when his revised work is published, it will reflect this new information.
Madaus, by the way, also concurs with Buckner designing these flags based on the evidence that I have cited in previous posts. He has forgotten more about CS flags than you and I know combined!
As an aside, according to the diary of VA artillerist John Guy (at the VA Historical Society today), the Virginia regiments of Floyd's command used VA state flags at Donelson.
>>>>>>McGuire, John Francis. The Irish in America. London: Longmans, Green and Co.,1868. 650; Appendix I, by Hardee, William J. "Biographical Sketch of maj. Gen. P.R. Cleburn." Gen. Hardee stated, in 1868, "Prior to the battle of Shiloh, a blue battle flag had been adopted by me for this division." >>>>>
"Adopted" is not the same as "designed." The Army of Central Kentucky became Hardee's Corps, including the half of Buckner's Divison that remained at Bowling Green, and they used the Buckner/Hardee flags issued at Bowling Green in January, 1862. And Hardee's Corps was bigger than one division.
>>>I saw below where the artifact-chasing bean counter has labelled my opinions as "rubbish." That's just not nice, but I have come to expect as much. So I'll address a few of his complaints.>>>
This "artifact chasing bean-counter" does proper history Glenn. I don't base things on mythical Irish lore but on physical evidence of the time and any corroborating accounts found afterwards. All of what I have found over the years has lead me to the fact that what Buckner stated in 1909 is as factual as can be. I was not going to take his word for it until I found other evidence to back it up - and I have.
Lastly, it was not your opinion that I called "rubbish" - but rather the post-war lore that sadly permeated the South and helped created mythology about some of the flags including the Southern Cross battle flags being made because of gobs of Celtic-Scottish blood flowing through Southern veines. You are entitled to believe whatever you wish, but when you are dealing with history, you better have solid facts to back up such claims. I was attacking the message; not the messenger.
This Celtic nonsense is pure horse-poop and I have the words of the man, William Porcher Miles, who designed that ANV flag, to back it up - who was French Hugenot by the way. It was the simple tilting of the cross of St. George, which predomintaes the designs flowing into his flag committee by the way, after hearing complaints from the Charleston Jewish community as well as fundamentalist Christians. So he simply tilted the cross and all was well.
>>>>Hardee/Hardy is as Irish as can be as was the General. No he was not born in Ireland (I did not say he was) but was certainly Irish, as are their descendants today.>>>>
This is now irrelevant since he did not design the flag - Buckner did. And no you did not state that Hardee was born in Ireland. He was from Georgia.
>>>>No one disputes the Irish symbolism that cannot be argued with, i.e. the green flag, the harp, "ERIN GO BRAUGH" and the like. The full moon is every bit as Irish as the harp.>>>>
And this is the only symbolism used on flags by units with a predominant Irish membership. I have not seen one Irish unit, of any war that used these flags (and they go WAY back in European history) with any "full moon" on their flags. Thus, if this symbol was so important to them why not use it instead of, or along with, the Harp of Erin? That fact that this moon symbol is not found on these flags speaks volumes.
>>>>It is well known that I am an advocate also of the St. Andrew's cross and the affection held for it by the Confederate forces. One very pure one existed for awhile in the Army of E. Tennessee under Gen. McCown, a man of Scottish heritage who used the flag for his division at Murfreesboro. No, all of his soldiers were not Scotsmen, but he was. And they learned to love their flag.>>>>
And McCown's flag was the ONLY CS battle flag directly patterned after the flag of Scotland thanks to his heritage.
>>>>As I stated, it is my belief that flags are symbols of the heart and soul of the army. There is a group of folks, mostly yankees, the individuals of which call themselves "we," who seem to be attempting with great effort and argument to reduce our flags to mere fabric artifacts. No soul. No link with the bravery of their forebears. Just a colored rag to mark the center of the battle line. Watch out for them. The use of sarcasm, scorn, and humiliating terms does not make them right.>>>>
Since I had no control of where I was born, that is irrelevant. I grew up in the South, in fact I have lived much more in the South than the North, and I do very serious history and have developed quite a solid reputation for that, which is why I get authors coming to me for assistance and research work. I have CS ancestors and belong to the SCV. I am only interested in facts, not perpetuating more of the nonesensical mythology that has permeated the SCV and UDC since the late 1800's/early 1900's, which is where this stuff begins by the way. NONE of it is contemporary to the war - NONE of it!
I have more respect for color bearers than you can even imagine and I talk them up everytime I can, but I go with facts, not myths, when doing so. After 15 plus years of solid research into CS flags, I have loads of respect for those men that bore them.
But I discount mythology in their history since there is no connection with that and what really happened. True history has no room for mythology whatsoever.
Lastly, I know a number of Southern born flag researchers like Devereaux Cannon and Ken Legendre, among others, that agree with what I have posted here as well as facts regarding CS flags.
>>>>On the matter of the full moon flag's origin, there is no verifiable history, no "smoking gun," and one man's opinion is pretty much as good as another's. >>>>
The difference is, I have some facts to back me up, including a pre-war flag that is strikingly similar to the flag Buckner created, and since he commanded that august body of troops before the war, and since that pre-war body made up the bulk of one of the most famous fighting units of the Confederate Army - the Orphan Brigade (who trained 5 miles from my front door by the way) - that is much better than some Irish mythology. I also have the right man in the right place at the right time and the fact that his division used them first in battle at Ft. Donelson when half of his division was sent there as reinforcements.
I have not found anything about this Irish "moon" in my over 15 years of serious Confederate flags research until very recently, when an article in a post-war Savannah paper turned up while I was scrolling microfilm at the University of Georgia last month. It mentioned this alleged connection between the Cleburne flag and this Irish moon. After reading it, I found it so factually innacurate, I tossed it off under the heading of "more post-war myhthology for CS flags."
And there it shall remain with me.
Glenn - I am very happy that you are doing your flag books as the more this stuff gets out to the people at large the better of and better understood they will be. I own all of your books and look forward to your new one. I also hope they help turn up more of the hundreds of missing flags still out there that await detailed study.
But you will diminish your books if you use mythology rather than solid history. If you wish to report on this Irish moon in one, then I would suggest doing so under the heading of "mythology relating to this flag pattern."
Devereaux Cannon and I are planning the most detailed study of the First National flag ever written. I spent a day at Duke University last week working towards that in fact with Thian's book on the CS flag submissions. We are going to handle the Orren Smith and Nicola Marschall claims as designers of this flag in the same way - post war mythology! Miles wrote immediately after that flag was created and hoisted for the first time and he states clearly that the flag was designed by the committee itself, "no other suitable designs being available." Neither Smith's nor Marschall's names appear in the records of the Committee on Flag and Seal chaired by Miles. Both of their claims came some years after the war.