“The Frederick Douglass quotation is important, but we should be careful about how we use it. For one, I don't believe Douglass was actually close enough to personally witness black Confederates in action. Thus, his account is at least second-hand, if not third-hand or more.

(This may very well be true, but you are making an assumption.)

Secondly, Douglass was trying to get the federal government to accept black military service. Emphasizing reports of the enemy using blacks as soldiers could have been a useful tool in convincing some white northerners that black soldiers could and should be put in the field for the Union. (This is a definition of spin.)

So, just like with all historical sources and evidence, we should definitely recognize its value, but consider the varying factors behind how Douglass got this information and why he said it.”

Craig, are you saying the sainted Frederick Douglass would stoop to using political spin, like a politician, to get his way? My goodness, and bless his heart. LOL Stan

"I don't think Douglass intentionally lied about this or other matters for political reasons, but he was an activist dedicated to promoting black freedom and rights. He was not an objective observer, but someone very much involved with social and political issues of the day."

Craig, you could not have produced a better example of "spin" if you had tried. My bachelor's is in Communication, and I know it when I see it. Stan

“As for me being a "consummate spinner," that is a matter of opinion, and merely an example of petty name calling. I would challenge (or expect) any person who believes that I inaccurately or unfairly describe something to explain how I was wrong, and back it up with evidence. That is what historians, and people serious about history, do.

In the case of Stan's comment, if he felt I was "spinning" something about Frederick Douglass, then I would hope he would explain how I was wrong, and how Douglass and his words are more accurately represented. Until that time, I stand by the reality that Douglass was an activist for black rights who labored for emancipation and black Union service. What he said and what he did must be considered according to those historical facts. We do not discount Douglass' words by any means, only use them carefully. That's not spin, that's understanding and using a historical source.”

Craig, Frederick Douglass made a statement. Whether it was true neither of us knows. In assuming he was emphasizing what he said to induce Lincoln to enlist blacks, you patronize Mr. Douglass. By the way, I did not say you were a “consummate” anything. What I said was that your statement and assumptions about Mr. Douglass’ quote was an example of political spin. That does not mean you are not sincere in your beliefs.

National Park Service historian emeritus, Ed Bearrs, stated, "I don't want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of Blacks both above and below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910". Quoted on http://www.scvcamp469-nbf.com/theblackconfederatesoldier.htm

Given Mr. Bearss’ reputation and personal history, I would believe him rather than some other folks.

Below are some other accounts of similar comments, from http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm

The following is a Union officer's account from War of the Rebellion, Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, Series 1, Vol. XVI, Part 1, Reports, page 805. "The forces attacking my camp were the First Regiment Texas Rangers, Colonel Wharton, and a battalion of the First Georgia Rangers, Colonel Morrison, and a large number of citizens of Rutherford County, many of whom had recently taken the oath of allegiance to the United States Government. There were also quite a number of negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops, who were armed and equipped and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day."

"Dr. Lewis Steiner of the U.S. Sanitary Commission observed that while the Confederate army marched through Maryland during the 1862 Sharpsburg (Antietam) campaign, 'over 3,000 negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie knives, dirks, etc. And were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army.'" Quoted in "Blacks, Jews fight on side of the South," by Thomas C. Mandes in The Washington Times, June 15, 2002.

From http://www.jewishworldreview.com/, "Black Confederates" -- "During our war of 1861, ex-slave Frederick Douglass observed, 'There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets ready to shoot down...and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government.'"

Also reported by this source: "Horace Greeley, in pointing out some differences between the two warring armies said, 'For more than two years, Negroes have been extensively employed in belligerent operations by the Confederacy. They have been embodied and drilled as rebel soldiers and had paraded with white troops at a time when this would not have been tolerated in the armies of the Union.'

General Nathan Bedford Forrest had both slaves and freeman serving in units under his command. After the war, General Forrest said of the black men who served under him '(T)hese boys stayed with me...and better Confederates did not live."

Even the Lincoln-Douglas (Stephen) debates came to an end after a while. Let’s drop this thread for now. Stan